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  #21  
Old 08-03-2013, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Simple Nature View Post
I went down Stafford road which had a fresh layer of chipseal on it. No seal coat yet or anything else that I could tell. There was still a lot of loose gravel and it was very much a light gray color. The pebbles were definitely smaller, more like chips, and it wasn't nearly as bad as some slurry seal jobs done around Hillsboro a few years ago (and that they are doing now).



One of the justifications that has come out of this thread and in conversations at meetings is that over time it will smooth out. That is fine and good for vehicle lanes, but it never smooth's out in bike lanes. The run on 229th from Evergreen to Cornell, both ways, is absolutely horrid (chipseal and slurry seal sections). It have been that way from day one which was quite some years ago. It is where dedicated bike lanes are designated that we need performance standards.

Assuming there were road surface performance standards for the bike lane area of roads, differing from that of main travel lanes adjoining that area; Anyone have suggestions for how, within the budget of the county, city, whatever...a smoother surface could be achieved for the bike lane area of the road?

Simple Nature...it may be a fair bit of work, and of course, positive response from the county isn't certain, but it may nevertheless be worth photo documenting condition of the road 229th from Evergreen to Cornell that you speak of. Video, close-up stills, whatever you think vividly illustrates the situation. Even when their intentions are good, I'd be surprised if more than a very few local government people...city, county...are familiar on a first hand basis having ridden a bike on roads with problem surfaces. If they're hearing about road surface problems affecting the quality of bike riding, I expect it's from a tiny minority.

To be motivated, or to feel empowered to do something beyond the established agenda, they need some kind of civil 'in your face' documentation of the situation...and a fair amount of voice from the public they serve. Four or five people hashing out the issue on a bike weblog isn't something they're likely to feel strongly obliges them to affect major changes, if that were the type of change required to be made....in the way it's been decided to do things.

Last edited by wsbob; 08-03-2013 at 09:40 AM.
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  #22  
Old 08-03-2013, 04:32 PM
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WSBOB... all too true.

I could see a finishing grind over the bike surfaces after treatment and before striping as a solution, one similar to what which they use to scrape of the old surface but with the primary intent to smooth the tops of the chips. This would be fairly simple in a single pass just prior to the final sweeping.

Today, the bike lanes often get the short end of the stick... meaning they are where the equipment turns around, veers off, or simply doesn't get a lot of attention with regard to maintaining a consistent surface. Performance standards are as simple as a clause in the contract with definition in whatever document manages the current performance requirements from the contractors.

But of course, you are right... who's ear do you need to bend to get attention to this matter? I suspect it has to be brought to a level of Metro to make Portland Metro region a bike friendly place. This would affect the counties as well as the city municipalities all in one fail swoop.
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  #23  
Old 08-03-2013, 10:55 PM
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Bend the ear of Dick Schouten, Washington County, Commissioner. Describe to him, the riding surface conditions you're finding with roads having been given the chip seal/fog seal treatment, how those conditions differ from that of the formerly used hot asphalt paving procedure. Also, ideas you have that you're wondering about whether they could further reduce the roughness of chip seal/fog seal.


Again, I think Comm Schouten does ride. Longer tours, maybe out of the state, on vacation elsewhere. Could be mistaken, but thought he said a couple years ago, that he'd ridden the 'Reach the Beach' ride. That would have taken him over county roads. Whether this means he's personally familiar with the effect currently used chip seal/fog seal has on riding conditions, I don't know. I would hope some elected official with the county, that has a personal and official interest in biking, has some first hand knowledge...meaning they've ridden roads paved with chip seal...as to how the county's road resurfacing procedures are affecting condition of the roads for biking.

In my earlier comment in which I posted the text of the letter that Stephen Roberts, Communications Coordinator Washington County Dept. of Land Use and Transportation responded to me with, at the request of Comm Schouten, about the chip seal inquiry I sent to Comm Schouten, I didn't include Roberts' contact info. I'll do that now:

stephen_roberts@co.washington.or.us

The following link is to Comm Schouten's county page. At the bottom of the page is a link to a form by which an inquiry may be directed to the commissioner.

http://www.co.washington.or.us/BOC/C...ick%20Schouten

If the chip seal/fog seal procedure really is seriously lacking in terms of providing good surface for riding bikes, the word should be out there, so people can think about it and decide how to possibly remedy the situation. There may be the possibility of an increase bike touring in the county as part of a growing tourist industry. The county has wineries, that I understand receive visits from people on bikes (how they get home any bottles of wine they decide to buy for their wine cellars, I don't know...UPS, FedEx?). The Washington County Visitor's Association mind be interested in reports of how chip seal/fog seal is affecting the roads it's telling people are great for riding.
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  #24  
Old 08-04-2013, 11:40 AM
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Thanks wsbob. I will see if I can draft a concise letter with regard to initiating performance requirements for road maintenance contracts. This is likely the best way to move forward.
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  #25  
Old 08-07-2013, 05:12 PM
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I meant to post this yesterday. If you are planning a trip to Banks, you might consider North Plains instead of Roy Rd. I ended up doing 2+ miles of sticky sealant over the fresh chipseal pebbles. They are not using a whole lot of sand to fill the gaps either. It was almost worse than before the seal coat. Anyway, just a word of warning.
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  #26  
Old 08-22-2013, 09:14 AM
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got honked at the whole stretch of SW Walker from William Walker Elem to SW 125th. Fired off a road conditions note the WashCo LUT

Road name: SW Walker Rd
Nearest crossroad: William Walker Elem to SW 125th
Location detail: the above noted-stretch
Type: Sign
Description: For the I cannot count time, while commuting to work this morning on SW Walker Rd riding the stretch from William Walker Elementary School to SW 125th, where there is no bike lane AND the lane widths are substandard, using the whole lane so as not to get squeezed, I had to endure some jackass in a car honking at me repeatedly the entire length. I WANT A BICYCLES MAY USE FULL LANE SIGN THERE! I know I can use the full lane, but the other road users need education. I am TIRED of being honked at.
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  #27  
Old 08-22-2013, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by lynnef View Post
got honked at the whole stretch of SW Walker from William Walker Elem to SW 125th. Fired off a road conditions note the WashCo LUT

Road name: SW Walker Rd
Nearest crossroad: William Walker Elem to SW 125th
Location detail: the above noted-stretch
Type: Sign
Description: For the I cannot count time, while commuting to work this morning on SW Walker Rd riding the stretch from William Walker Elementary School to SW 125th, where there is no bike lane AND the lane widths are substandard, using the whole lane so as not to get squeezed, I had to endure some jackass in a car honking at me repeatedly the entire length. I WANT A BICYCLES MAY USE FULL LANE SIGN THERE! I know I can use the full lane, but the other road users need education. I am TIRED of being honked at.

Washington County LUT (Land Use Transportation). East-west travel, so for you, I suppose this occurred during morning commute hours. If I've got this right, basically a four block stretch of road. Sorry you had to endure the honking, but good for you to make an effort to get the county's attention.

Your experience highlights the point that of roads in the general area ranging from Canyon Rd to the south, and Parkway or Butner to the north, Walker will increasingly be an important bike travel route. Improvements to the road supporting biking and walking should be made.


On the bright side, south a bit on parts of streets 122nd and Denfield serving as a route to Cedar Hills Blvd and the mall, the county's construction of sidewalks is coming along well. The last 2-3 weeks, the crew has been busy covering various parts of the project: installing drainage, residential driveway ramp sections as required, curbs. Construction of sidewalks themselves may be soon.

Interesting thing I'm not sure about...the work appears to be happening on just one side of the streets...that is, it may be the plan is to have sidewalks on just one side of the street. I'm kind of hoping that is the plan. Due to a number of factors, the parts of these streets serving as a frequently used route to the mall by people walking and biking has been a place where motor vehicle traffic has been a relatively slow 15-20 mph, sometimes even 10mph when pedestrians are walking in the street. That low motor vehicle speed is great for neighborhood livability. It's a short travel distance by car, so the slow speed is no biggy in terms of additional travel time. Hopefully, with fewer people walking down the street itself, people driving won't seize this as an opportunity to bring the mph speed up appreciably higher.
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  #28  
Old 08-22-2013, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lynnef View Post
got honked at the whole stretch of SW Walker from William Walker Elem to SW 125th. Fired off a road conditions note the WashCo LUT

Road name: SW Walker Rd
Nearest crossroad: William Walker Elem to SW 125th
Location detail: the above noted-stretch
Type: Sign
Description: For the I cannot count time, while commuting to work this morning on SW Walker Rd riding the stretch from William Walker Elementary School to SW 125th, where there is no bike lane AND the lane widths are substandard, using the whole lane so as not to get squeezed, I had to endure some jackass in a car honking at me repeatedly the entire length. I WANT A BICYCLES MAY USE FULL LANE SIGN THERE! I know I can use the full lane, but the other road users need education. I am TIRED of being honked at.
You might also let the Beaverton Police know of your problem and see if they will add a patrol to monitor the situation. I know how fast these things can get explosive and PD really should be notified. Video and/or license numbers are also useful.
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  #29  
Old 08-22-2013, 02:28 PM
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Busier elsewhere than usual the last few days, I nearly missed a story in the Oregonian about 'fog seal' road paving being used in Portland. Also has some good info about 'slurry seal', relative costs and other items. Some comments worthwhile reading too. http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/...l#incart_river

Excerpt:
"...The so-called "fog seal" has allowed the city to triple its paving miles this summer. But it's sticky stuff resembling chocolate syrup that needs hours to dry. ..........."...At a time when the public's patience with ruts and potholes has reached a dead end, fog seals allow city maintenance crews to give residential streets quick facelifts.

Rather than grinding away the old pavement and adding a new blacktop, PBOT is applying a light application of the slow-setting asphalt emulsion to existing pavement surfaces in low-traffic areas.

Oh, and it's cheap. Grinding and re-paving a mile-long traffic lane costs tax payers about $150,000. With fog seal, the price tag plummets to about $7,500, Rivera said.

Still, the technique isn't the most durable quick-paving option. In Washington and Clackamas counties, for example, cities have for years used a different technique called slurry seal, which uses a liquid mixture re-enforced with rock aggregate to do the same thing.

"It has a better life span," said Stephen Roberts, a Washington County transportation spokesman. "Fog seal lasts from one to three years, while we typically get seven to 10 years out of a slurry seal." ...." rose/oregonian

Too busy right now to check previous comments here, but I think I'm remembering that Washington County says it's been using fog seal over slurry seal to attempt to reduce the roughness of roads for smooth rolling bike use.
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  #30  
Old 09-03-2013, 06:18 AM
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I take back what I said about the better than average chipseal on Kerkman Rd.

That was the sub layer, which now has a second layer applied and the lines painted. Kerkman is now as bad as Padgett, Zion Church and Leisy roads with hand numbing large aggregate used.
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