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  #11  
Old 07-22-2013, 04:26 PM
Alan Alan is offline
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Originally Posted by Simple Nature View Post
Drosen, what is "FB site"?
I guess he means Facebook but all I came up with is https://www.facebook.com/WashingtonC...orsAssociation .
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  #12  
Old 07-22-2013, 06:09 PM
drosen drosen is offline
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Default Wash. Co. Roads Facebook Page

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Washi...s/133444601759
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  #13  
Old 07-22-2013, 07:05 PM
intoscenicrides intoscenicrides is offline
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Roy Rd has been chip sealed
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  #14  
Old 07-22-2013, 09:40 PM
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Here's the list:
http://www.wc-roads.com/index.cfm?pa...lumn=3&order=1

Victoria assures me that by next spring "...these roads will be back to looking more like a paved hot mix asphalt surface." I don't think Victoria rides a bike. NW Padgett Rd. (Hillsboro to Banks) is a prime example. This was a perfectly smooth road without issues and then chipsealed a few years ago. Ever since I've dreaded traveling along that route because it is just as bad as it was when they first chipsealed it.

We need an advocate! We need surface quality standards! We need help!
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  #15  
Old 07-23-2013, 12:45 AM
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Here's the list:
http://www.wc-roads.com/index.cfm?pa...lumn=3&order=1

Victoria assures me that by next spring "...these roads will be back to looking more like a paved hot mix asphalt surface." I don't think Victoria rides a bike. NW Padgett Rd. (Hillsboro to Banks) is a prime example. This was a perfectly smooth road without issues and then chipsealed a few years ago. Ever since I've dreaded traveling along that route because it is just as bad as it was when they first chipsealed it.

We need an advocate! We need surface quality standards! We need help!

"...This was a perfectly smooth road without issues and then chipsealed a few years ago. ..." Simple Nature

Another layman road user's observation that a road was just fine, didn't need surfacing, but got chipsealed nevertheless. Have you had an opportunity to relate this to any of the officials who've listened to you? What's their answer?


For it's director of Bureau of Transportation, Portland may have gotten lucky with it's recent selection of someone that apparently rides a bike more than just around the block.

As for Washington County officials that bike some and may have more than a passing interest in what effect county roads department's repair methods may have on the quality of surface for biking, Commissioner Dick Schouten may be one of them. I've talked briefly a couple times with Schouten. Down to earth, unassuming. So's his wife. Can't remember right off hand where he said he and his wife have ridden, but seems like he's got some mileage on the saddle. Link to a county page where he can be emailed: http://www.co.washington.or.us/BOC/C...ners/index.cfm

I wonder if any of the other four county commissioners ride the county roads much. Certainly be nice if they did at least ride some, so they'd have some first hand knowledge of how the county's roads are for biking.
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  #16  
Old 07-23-2013, 08:41 AM
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Simple Nature Simple Nature is offline
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I know that one of the roadway reps for Washington Co. that is at most of the meeting is from Manning and is a casual cyclist. The lady from Hillsboro is fairly green about cycling but is happy to acquire input.

Since we are "novices" when it comes to assessing surface conditions, and the fox is watching the henhouse when it comes to required maintenance... I doubt our voice will carry -any- traction with regard to -our- assessment of road conditions.

The key to having chipseal become smooth again is traffic. Minimal traffic, minimal wear.

There is also the older chipseal (large chips) where the surface actually gets worse with time. Many of the westside max track crossings have this. I've broken more than one mirror on just the chipseal alone on these short sections.
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  #17  
Old 08-01-2013, 08:37 PM
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Here's what I got about the rationale for chipsealing vs. asphalting:

"With road maintenance needs outpacing available road maintenance funding, the county is faced with having less resources for roads. Deferred road maintenance on county roads is currently estimated at $10 million and is expected to double over the next 10 years.

Most of our road maintenance resources go toward maintaining pavements. To ensure that our pavement maintenance dollars are being used most effectively, the county hired Applied Pavement Technology, Inc. to conduct an independent assessment of the county's pavement preservation and maintenance program. That study found that the pavement maintenance strategies used in the rural area - primarily chip seals - are cost-effective and should be continued. In fact, they recommended that more seal coat treatments be used in the urban area to stretch our maintenance dollars. You can view the presentation of the study findings and read the executive summary and the full report on our Reports and Publications page.

In a 2009 report reviewing our chip seal program (also posted to the Reports page), it is noted that since 2002 the county has been applying a fog seal as the final layer of our chip seals. The fog seal is a fine mist of emulsified asphalt covered with a fine dusting of sand. The fog seal helps fill voids and ties down the chip seal. We also started using a slightly smaller rock size for our chip seals at that time. This was a result of a recommendation from a bicycling representative on the Rural Roads Operations and Maintenance Advisory Committee (RROMAC). Both the smaller rock and fog seal were efforts to improve road smoothness and ride quality for bicyclists.

We recommend that bicyclists avoid roads during and immediately after chip sealing. Within a few months these roads will again be suitable for riding. Soon they will look as if they had received a much more expensive hot mix asphalt paving. Since most rural roads are chip sealed every 7 to 10 years, these roads are not best for bicycling for just a very short time. You are already familiar with our annual road maintenance plan, where you can view the list of roads scheduled for chip sealing each year. Check out the roads that were chip sealed last year or the year before and see if they are now suitable for riding."

Your luck at Kerkman was better than mine. I had to ride on hard gravel. You're right, there was no need to do anything. Victoria's comment about avoid the new sealed road for a few months is unacceptable. Kerkman and Roy are links to other roads.

Simple Nature having mentioned biking needing an advocate to monitor road surfacing conditions in the county, it seemed to me County Commissioner Dick Schouten might have some thoughts about chipseal's effects on riding. As it turned out, he asked Communications Coordinator to answer my inquiry. Doesn't seem to me the answers received were much different than already received, but judge for yourselves:


Thanks for your message. I discussed your concerns with Commissioner Schouten, who asked me to provide a response.

We certainly understand concerns about chip-sealed roads. It is a messy process for cyclists while it’s happening and for a month or so afterward. However, it is the most cost effective preventive maintenance treatment for rural roads. It is true that chip seals may be applied to a road that appears to be in “good” condition—because it is a preventive treatment, it’s critical that we apply a chip seal before the underlying pavement gets into “poor” condition, when more costly overlay treatments, repairs or reconstruction would be required. The chip seal acts as a kind of protective layer that preserves the integrity of the road. Rest assured that we don’t apply chip seals unless our operations staff believe there is a legitimate need to do so… in fact, we are having to defer treatments on roads that would benefit from it now due to limited funding.

We have taken steps in recent years to make our chip seals more bike-friendly. Today we use aggregate that is 1/3 smaller than we used to use. We also now come back and do a "fog seal" with sand and liquid asphalt to make the surface smoother. We also do additional sweeping following the fog seal. These steps are taken primarily for bicyclist usability, but they also benefit drivers, too.

On many of the roads we apply a chip seal treatment to, the pre-existing surface was already an older chip seal. Typically, within several months to a year the new chip-sealed surface will smooth out and look very much like it did before. The fog seal shortens the time it takes for that to happen.

Here is a link to our Chip Seal Fact Sheet: http://www.co.washington.or.us/lut/d...aling-2013.pdf

I’ve also shared your concerns with our Operations & Maintenance division for their awareness. Thanks again for sharing your concerns.

My original inquiry:
Commissioner Schouten, I've met you, talked briefly a couple times at the Beaverton Candidates Forum. If I remember correctly, you and your wife have done a fair bit of biking, which I was delighted to hear. Your likely first hand knowledge of road surface quality beneficial to good riding, is why I'm writing you, relative to an apparent increase on the part of the county roads dept, in the use of chipseal for road resurfacing. Given that it makes for rough riding in the saddle, some of the folks on the local bike weblog forum report their concerns over what they observe to be increasing use of chipseal on county roads. Besides noting that chipseal is rough to ride on, some forum members say they've seen instances in which roads they been riding for some time, were very smooth, no potholes or cracks, but for unapparent reasons, got chipsealed. Forum members report that county officials have been somewhat forthcoming with answers, but questions remain. The lower cost advantages of chipseal has been offered as an explanation, but nothing as to why seemingly good condition roads are having chipseal laid down. Bikeportland forums 'All About the Westside' category, is where the reports and discussion I'm referring to have been posted. Answers to this question and any other thoughts you'd like to share about chipseal relative to quality of biking on roads out in Washington County 's beautiful countryside, would be welcome. Were all enthusiastically looking forward to the soon to be officially opened, Tualitan Valley Scenic Bikeway. Hoping of course, that at least the roads on that route will get a smoother pavement surface than chipseal. Thanks...

Maybe some of you have still have some thoughts about this...ideas for reasonable improvements the county could make to steps it already seems to be taking to keep chipseal from being unduly rough for riding. County officials do seem at least to be aware of the situation and are making some efforts.

Last edited by wsbob; 08-01-2013 at 08:56 PM.
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  #18  
Old 08-02-2013, 10:24 AM
canuck canuck is offline
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Wsbob,

The smaller the aggregate used the better.

Aggergate is measured in size minus, so 1/2" minus aggregate consists of pieces 1/2" and smaller.

If you've ridden Padgett Rd or Zion Church Rd, these roads have been chip sealed with very large aggregate, making a very rough ride.

NW Kerkman Rd, which runs between Dersham and Zion Church, and was chip sealed about 2 weeks ago, has much smaller aggregate, making for a smoother ride, although not as smooth as the road before it was applied.
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  #19  
Old 08-02-2013, 10:17 PM
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Wsbob,

The smaller the aggregate used the better.

Aggergate is measured in size minus, so 1/2" minus aggregate consists of pieces 1/2" and smaller.

If you've ridden Padgett Rd or Zion Church Rd, these roads have been chip sealed with very large aggregate, making a very rough ride.

NW Kerkman Rd, which runs between Dersham and Zion Church, and was chip sealed about 2 weeks ago, has much smaller aggregate, making for a smoother ride, although not as smooth as the road before it was applied.

Maybe you and whoever else that wants to, that have recent experience with the 'before-after' condition of roads having been paved with chipseal...both smaller and larger aggregate, could think of where the smaller aggregate chip seal would be on a 'one to ten' scale, or some such thing: hot asphalt paving on one end, chipseal paving on the other.

May be worthwhile to have some sense of how smooth pavement ideally should to be for good riding. Personally, I don't need super-smooth pavement. Some roughness is alright. If the smaller 1/2" minus aggregate chipseal seems too rough, maybe someone has some ideas about how the county, within its budget, could possibly make smoother, at least the far right side of the road where people often are obliged to ride.

Last edited by wsbob; 08-02-2013 at 10:19 PM.
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  #20  
Old 08-03-2013, 02:13 AM
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Simple Nature Simple Nature is offline
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I went down Stafford road which had a fresh layer of chipseal on it. No seal coat yet or anything else that I could tell. There was still a lot of loose gravel and it was very much a light gray color. The pebbles were definitely smaller, more like chips, and it wasn't nearly as bad as some slurry seal jobs done around Hillsboro a few years ago (and that they are doing now).

The only thing that got a bit hairy was the loose gravel while braking with one hand and holding the camera in the other. The tail end of the recumbent trike was feeling mighty loose toward the end there.

This was another run that use to be a blast at 40+mph and smooth as glass. Oh well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_Ycyo1R5Ig

One of the justifications that has come out of this thread and in conversations at meetings is that over time it will smooth out. That is fine and good for vehicle lanes, but it never smooth's out in bike lanes. The run on 229th from Evergreen to Cornell, both ways, is absolutely horrid (chipseal and slurry seal sections). It have been that way from day one which was quite some years ago. It is where dedicated bike lanes are designated that we need performance standards.
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