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  #21  
Old 04-25-2011, 08:22 AM
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Haven_kd7yct Haven_kd7yct is offline
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I believe Californians and Washingtonians are taught to get over as far to the right as possible when making a right turn-- to get into the bike lane before making the turn.

On the one hand, it would cut down on right hooks, but only if the people driving merge into the bike lane after yielding to bikes in the bike lane.

On the other hand... the law says the bike lane is for bikes only, and that cars are not allowed to drive, stop or park in the bike lane.

Anyway-- my point being, a lot of people who move here from out of state don't have to take any sort of test to get an Oregon driver's license, they just have to apply for one. So they don't know a lot of our bike lane and bike specific laws.

Yes, I know that ignorance is never a good defense. Maybe it's time the state instituted mandatory written testing when you move here to get an Oregon DL, and when you renew, and change the renewal period to 2-5 years instead of 8+.
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  #22  
Old 04-25-2011, 09:24 AM
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I'm not sure about the bike lane being used as an 'all vehicles' right turn transition lane, idea. California does it, so I suppose it works in some form. Cyclists there probably are often cut off further back from the intersection as motorists transition into the bike lane to prepare for a right turn.

Is this happening as I visualize, and if so, is this the worse that's happening with this measure for reducing right hooks? If true, maybe that approach is worth considering as a means to enabling safe, efficient flow of traffic on the road.

It's no doubt true that Californians and other out of state visitors that find the need to drive in Oregon, aren't actively aware of all differences that may exist between their state...or countries...road use regulations, and Oregon's. Would though, the people of Oregon, support an actual measure requiring all such road users to test before being allowed access to roads within Oregon (at least roads the state has authority over.)? Think of what that would involve.

If Oregon should ever get to the point (maybe it already exists over on Williams Ave.) where the number of cyclists on the road is so great that a motor vehicle operator in a main lane would never have a gap in the flow of cyclists in the bike lane so as to maneuver their motor vehicle across the bike lane and into a right turn, maybe the California measure would be one necessary to take.
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  #23  
Old 04-25-2011, 08:06 PM
Alan Alan is offline
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The move that 668 ESM did on Setha was completely negligent; the driver would never try that on a motorcycle cop, for example. It was especially nasty with that drain grate right there. He (?) saw Setha and knew he was pushing his luck, that's why he cut in so fast. Do his brake lights look confused to anyone else, like amber instead of red? And his rear tire clipped the curb...very poor driver. That bike lane line desperately needs restriping, too.

I'm not sure about Washington law on that situation but then, there were no bike lanes at all when I took my driver's test. If nothing else that goes to show that continuing education and retesting for drivers is needed just to deal with changing laws and traffic. I do know that around Vancouver, where a bike lane crosses a dedicated right turn lane, they stripe the bike lane with dashed lines for the cross-over to the left of the right turn lane. Most cars obey it well enough, but I am very careful to check before I merge over. I have had to hit the brakes and swerve right on occassion.

It's not WA law but the WA driver's guide is linked from here (1.3Mb .pdf). Page 78 "Space for Bicyclists" says:
Bicycle lanes are marked with solid white lines. You
must yield to bicycles in a bicycle lane. Do not drive in
a bicycle lane except when making a turn, entering or
leaving an alley, private road or driveway, or when you
need to cross the bicycle lane to park near the curb. Do
not park in a bicycle lane.
That makes it sound legal for cars to do that sort of move in WA. That section also mentions 39,000 bikers injured or killed annually.

Wsbob, I haven't heard any proposals to require visiting out-of-state drivers to be tested, just drivers moving into a new state. I thought that was already required, at least for WA, it seems like a good common-sense rule, but apparently not according to the DOL website: "...you won’t need to take a knowledge test or a driving test unless you have a medical or physical condition that indicates testing is required." Yes, testing visitors would be hugely complicated and somehow I imagine it would fall afoul of some federal laws.

In Dutch cities where drivers are very aware of bikes, they'll just wait patiently for a break in ped/bike traffic, even if it's a crowded crossing and they have to wait several minutes. They don't get pushy or flustered, just wait until it's their turn. Even on Williams such a break would come fairly quickly, faster than tourist parts of Amsterdam. It will take some getting-used-to by our drivers, I guess.

Last edited by Alan; 04-25-2011 at 08:06 PM. Reason: fix formatting
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  #24  
Old 04-25-2011, 08:54 PM
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I think if you read the "Do not drive in a bicycle lane except when making a turn, ..." literally means moving after you have made a proper stop or whatever you are required to do. It certainly does not permit a "merge" into the bike lane. It simply says you can "cross" the bike lane in executing a "legal" turn from "your" lane. The verbage could be better or even more explicit, but good luck on changing that.
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  #25  
Old 04-25-2011, 09:04 PM
Alan Alan is offline
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Well, that's just the driver's guide, not the WA law itself, so it's only meant to be descriptive. I hope you're right about what it means! It gets messy, though, with decisions like that judge in Portland a year or so back that ruled against a right-hooked cyclist because the bike lane stripe stopped at the intersection, hence the bike lane itself stopped. Now, I don't agree with that judge but if you take his interpretation literally, the car that did the right-hook didn't actually drive in the bike lane since the bike lane (by his interpretation) had stopped.
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  #26  
Old 04-26-2011, 04:23 PM
setha setha is offline
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Default Potential RIght Hook Avoided by Quick Thinking Despite 334 DDX's Late Turn Signal

I think that I avoided a potential right hook at Barbur and Hamilton, despite 334 DDX's late turn signal. Here's a link to the helmet cam video. and here's are stills from the video:


vw_bug_bus_and_do_not_pass2 by pdxcommuter, on Flickr

Another still, which shows 334 DDX's license plate and that he finally turned on his turn signal:


vw_bug_bus_and_do_not_pass3_plate_only by pdxcommuter, on Flickr

and here's the description from the video:

Quote:
Helmet cam video, 4/7/2011, Barbur, southbound, before the second intersection with Hamilton, about 6:45 PM, Portland, Oregon, USA.

What's interesting about this video is what doesn't happen: I avoid a potential right hook. How? By recalling specifics about the route, by putting myself in the place of the VW driver, and by obeying Forrester's rule that you don't pass a car on the right that can turn right (I recall reading this in Forrester's book, _Effective Cycling_.)

Watch the green VW, Oregon plate 334 DDX. At the beginning of the video, 334 DDX does not have his right turn signal on. So, it should be safe for me to proceed, in the bike lane, at least to the back of the bus. Then when the bus finishes servicing the bus stop, the bus will go and I can go too, right?

Wrong.

What you see me do instead is hang back behind 334 DDX. Why? Because I suspected that 334 DDX might turn right. How would I know that? Because there are 2 general purpose lanes to the left of 334 DDX. If he was going south on Barbur, he could merge into one of those lanes and not have to wait behind the bus. OK, you say, maybe 334 DDX is not in a hurry, and just prefers to wait behind the bus and avoid having to do the merge. But, 334 DDX would have to do that merge anyway because the right lane ends, further up ahead on Barbur. I know that because I ride Barbur every day. Even if he wasn't familiar with Barbur, the sign to the right of 334 DDX tells him that he has to merge to the left, ahead.

Even if the right lane did not end, I argue that it's still unwise to proceed down that slot between the VW and the bus. Doing so gains me 20 feet, and a have to sit behind the bus and breathe its fumes. Its just as easy to wait behind the VW. If another car comes along in the right lane, that car's driver is much more likely to see me because I am in front of him and to the right rather than coming up behind him and to the right.

As you can see in the video, I guessed right. The bus does go forward. 334 DDX does belatedly turn on his right turn signal and make his turn.

Last edited by setha; 04-26-2011 at 04:41 PM. Reason: Added another photo.
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  #27  
Old 04-26-2011, 05:39 PM
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That one is an almost every day occurance.
I expected that bug to do just that just by the leadin.
I would have probably already taken the lane just to avoid playing tag with the bus.
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  #28  
Old 04-26-2011, 07:01 PM
setha setha is offline
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You are probably a faster rider than me. Most of the time I try to pass the bus the bus usually ends up passing me. Plus, the bus, like other traffic on Barbur, can go 35 or 45 mph, unlike, say, downtown or the SE side.
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  #29  
Old 04-26-2011, 09:33 PM
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Looks like Barbur, uphill. Been a long time since I rode it. Never a pleasant experience on a bike. I would have done just as seth did. On the other hand, if I was feeling particularly alert and energetic, I might have bothered to transition around the bus by the lanes to the left as simple nature commented about. But as seth, said, on Barbur, doing that is probably just going to result in being passed by the bus shortly thereafter.

Barbur isn't pleasant traveling in a car either. I suppose that's a small amount of justice.

There's a tougher climb involved, but I'd probably be inclined to take Corbett and some side streets at the top to come out just east of the Burlingame Fred Meyer. Much nicer, quieter ride. Almost no hyper-tensioned road users to deal with.
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  #30  
Old 08-16-2011, 09:37 PM
setha setha is offline
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Default Near Left Hook, Northbound Barbur at Lowell

I haven't posted to this thread in a while because my computer died. Then some other things came up. But, I'm back now. And I have a backlog of video to go through.

Yesterday, I think that I avoided a left hook.

Here's the link to the helmet cam video.

And, here are some stills from the video:

left_hook_barbur_before_turn_in_wrong_lane04 by pdxcommuter, on Flickr

left_hook_barbur_before_turn_in_wrong_lane_xwn_556 _06 by pdxcommuter, on Flickr


Finally, here's the description from youtube:

Quote:
When I shot this video, I thought I was about to be left hooked. This was at about 8:55 AM, 8/15/2011, at Barbur and Lowell, Portland, Oregon, USA. I was headed northbound on Barbur. This part of Barbur has a northbound bike lane, 3 general purpose northbound lanes, and a general purpose southbound lane. I saw that XWN 556, a smaller grey SUV, was travelling southbound. The driver was using the western-most northbound lane as a left turn lane. That is, the driver was traveling southbound in a northbound lane. That told me that the driver did not know what they were doing. When the driver started to make a left across my path, I hit my brakes.

Watching the video, you can see that the driver slowed. From what I see now in the video, I _might_ have been able to "shoot the gap" and avoided stopping. I still think that I did the right thing by stopping. The driver was driving against traffic. If they were going to do that, who knew what else they would do.

I could see (and the video shows) that the driver appeared to be an older woman. She continued eastbound onto Lowell. When I go over the video frame-by-frame, the woman in the front passenger seat appears to be waving an apology. Although the video does not show it, I recall that she was cringing at what the driver had done. At the end of the video you hear me say the license plate, Oregon XWN 556.
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bicycle lane, left hook, portland oregon usa, right hook, smidsy/smidgaf

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